What is free will? It's obviously not the ability to do anything, since my inability to levitate or to leap over a building is not a violation of my free will. Free will just means that amongst the options we have available, we are free to choose.
So here's my hangup. Imagine our options for a particular choice are a collection of fruits:
- An apple.
- An orange.
- A pear.
- A grape.
God could have also given us the option of a pineapple and a kiwi (and an infinite array of other alternatives), but he didn't. Free will just means that we get to choose from within our palette of available choices.
On their own, none of these fruits are inherently bad. Sin isn't something that existed before god came around and god just happened to be powerless to do something about it. Even something like lying with man as with woman (gasp, anal sex!) isn't inherently bad until god decides he doesn't like it. No, god decides what is sinful. So one day, for whatever reason, he decides that chowing down on the apple is a sin and that he's going to punish whoever does it.
Rather than remove the apple from the list of options (or just leaving it as an ambiguous option in the first place), he leaves it there. Taking away the apple as an alternative would not violate our free will, just as my inability to levitate doesn't violate my free will. We would still have options to choose from.
So what motivation could there possibly be for tainting the apple and leaving it? The only real possibility is to trip us up all the way into eternal torment, and that's a pretty mean play on god's part.
So when the skeptic asks, "Why does god have to give us all these fun, harmless options that he deems sinful?," the answer can't be because he loved us so much that he wanted us to have free will - we can have free will without the malignant options. Seriously, can't we trade the ability to eat shellfish (Leviticus 11:10-12) for the ability to fly? How cool would that have been? That's some free will I could get behind.
Unless god decides he doesn't care for flying either. How fun can heaven really be hanging around this dude?
* Disclaimer: I believe we live in a deterministic universe. Choices are the result of a particular brain state, and your brain is surreptitiously connected to all other matter in the universe. So from the get-go, I think the idea of free will is only true in the sense that we recognize options. However, for the sake of the following argument, I'm treating the idea of free will in the fashion that most religious people view it.
Comments (29)
Very nice =D
I agree.... if there is a God, he's not very concerned with us.
Rather than remove the apple from the list of options (or just leaving it as an ambiguous option in the first place), he leaves it there. Taking away the apple as an alternative would not violate our free will, just as my inability to levitate doesn't violate my free will. We would still have options to choose from.
So what motivation could there possibly be for tainting the apple and leaving it? The only real possibility is to trip us up all the way into eternal torment, and that's a pretty mean play on god's part.
But, but, u just dont git it! He did it dat way cuz he loves us!
Very well put. =]
@In_Reason_I_Trust - I can haz applez nao?
@lovechartreuse - Do not want! :P
JT
@Zerowing21 - i'm in yo biblez, controllin yo choicez.
Gonna feed my cat a strawberry and see what happens. XD
Once again. Awesome post. Awesome lol cats. I need to come up with something more original for my comments.
I've tried that argument on Revelife and somehow they didn't buy it. Something about "testing your faith" - however I wonder if a spouse cheating on you is just "testing your love".
"If there wasn't a God it would be necessary to invent him."- Voltaire
"If there were a god it would be necessary to abolish him." - KMFDM
Which do you agree with?
@FoliageDecay - Neither.
JT
@TheLoveMuse - Indeed!
However, the best way to address the theistic point of view is point out an utter lack of evidence when compared with the standard for evidence for any other important belief.
We might just end up being video game addicts in another dimension and we don't know it.
@FoliageDecay - Oh, I've got the pointing out how religious beliefs are false by any reasonable standard down. ;)
JT
@Zerowing21 - Well if that's the case. Get off Xanga and go take on Alvin Plantinga before he kicks the bucket!
@FoliageDecay - lmao!
JT
@Zerowing21 - Although in fairness. When a non-theist uses the inconsistency of the idea of god as a doubt for it's believability it's the same mistake a creationist makes arguing that the disagreement on details about evolution counts as evidence against evolution. Something's existence is a different debate from how something works.
Unless my brain is firing off wrong right now.
@FoliageDecay - If they could produce some valid doubts for the truth of evolution (assuming we ignore all the evidence that it is true, which is lacking from the creationist/theist camp), then we could start looking at them the same way.
They haven't done this. ;)
JT
@Zerowing21 - So you see the arguments against the consistency of the idea of a god a way of driving an invalid concept home?
My undergrad adviser seemed to think the same thing, though arguments about evil and free will seem like they would be merely insulting avoidance's of the issue to most.
They may not have valid evidence, but they think they do. Therefore from their perspective we are making the same mistake. It seems it would be best to argue uses the other's perspective as much as possible.
Those rules were created because, back then, most of them were generally good guidelines to live by, whether it was to keep you alive, to prevent illness/epidemics, to keep your family together, to prevent social discord, et cetera . (Theology turned them into "sins" and "commandments" when they ordinarily would've been just "bad ideas" and "words of wisdom".) They're mostly outdated now because we know more than we used to, like how to properly gather/prepare our food so it's safe to eat, or how to raise a child as a single parent. (...Not that it's ok now to sleep around and break up your family by being unfaithful or anything like that, but back in the day, the consequences of being a cheating douche bag were usually much more severe. You could've easily spread diseases, ruined someone's life or family (like getting another woman pregnant and getting her exiled, shunned, killed, etc.), gotten exiled or stoned yourself, or caused any number of other irreparable situations.)
Yeah, I feel you. Why would god give us these extremely strong sexual urges, and the punish us for acting on them. Their God is a vindictive douche.
It's like when cops pretend to be prostitutes and then arrest you for buying into it. You put the temptation in my face, and then punished me for it. DOUCHE.
I'd also like to point out that I believe evolution is obvious, but I have hard time buying the monkey -> man concept. Why are there still monkeys, why don't we see them making the leap, and why is there nothing 1/2 way between man and monkey.
It's quite obvious we came from another planet, crashed our ship, and got stranded here.
@Supplementary - You're suggesting that the Cananites were so ill-behaved that assembling a list of reasons to kill your neighbor and stick to it was an improvement. It wasn't. Many of those ideas were outdated then.
All the same, if they were really authored by god, he could've done way better. Hell, you or I could do infinitely better, and we're hardly omnipotent.
JT
for the sake of this comment, assume God exists.
God created everything - including free will. which inevitably means, free will exists to make choices among what he has given us. we have the choice to believe in him or not believe in him. we have the choice to believe but not worship or follow his rules. we have the choice to eat coco puffs for breakfast or a steak. this is free will - God does not choose for us.
remember, the "sin" or options we have been given within the church are merely interpretations of the Bible. the Bible was written by humans and translated umteen times by humans. parts of the Bible were left out when the Catholics chose what to share with those who were not educated enough to read and translate. so in all reality, we don't really know what God has decided is sinful. your choices are between you and God and your relationship with him.
some people can't live without the illusion of freewill :)
@Casa_blanca_lilies - Why not?
JT
I believe that the whole issue is a matter of obedience and trust. Do you obey your mother and father? Do you trust your parents? It's the same type of relationship the human race was to have with God. We just chose not to trust Him, and we chose to disobey Him. As a result, we don't live in a perfect world, and none of us know peace, balance, or harmony in our relationship with heaven, with earth or with each other. I dare say many of us are not at peace with ourselves. I am not at peace with myself, so I will speak for myself on that one.
So, if God is the Creator of 70 sextillion stars, and claims to be the Father of every living creature in the universe, then doesn't He get to make the rules that govern our behavior?
Assuming that God doesn't exist, of what purpose was it to write down the Ten Commandments? Why keep holy the Sabbath, a word that translates as "sign of the most ancient and holy Father," if God isn't real? What good is it then to have no other gods before a God who doesn't exist? It wouldn't matter if we take His name in vain because He isn't real. And what is up with the whole "graven image" thing if God or gods aren't real? If we can so easily scrap four of the Ten Commandments, then why do the other six matter? Why should we honor our parents? Why shouldn't we commit adultery and lie about it later? Depending on who you talk to, the Ten Commandments were either done away with, or were edited for content (changing Sabbath worship to Sunday worship is one example) or they are the foundation of law and order in God's universe that cannot be broken or changed. God created the universe, God makes the laws. (Or not if you don't believe in Him.) We either choose to obey the law, or not. We either choose to love God the way a child loves a parent, or not. It wasn't about the fruit. It was quite literally a matter of life and death. If God hadn't chosen to find a substitute for Adam and Eve, they both would have died the day they chose to trust someone other than their Father. Because of God's love for Adam and Eve, we are alive to have this discussion here today. Had they died, well, we wouldn't be here now.
By the way, there is no eternal torment. No one will burn in hell for all eternity. The guy who said we would "be as gods" lied about that. That part of the story is in Gen. 3. The flames of hell will one day burn out, and there won't be anything left of the people who chose not to trust God. The purpose of hell is to destroy sin. Those who make the decision to reject God end up getting burned, for there isn't a place for them in heaven. They won't be comfortable there. Thieves won't find pockets to pick, houses to burgle, or things to steal. Murderers won't fit in because they can't kill anyone, for all get access to the tree of life. Its rather pointless trying to kill someone who is immortal. People who cling to hatred won't fit in among the blacks, whites, and other peoples of color who are living together in peace and harmony. Politicians, lawyers, many religious leaders and other liars won't be there because God is the Truth, and everyone outside of hell believes in the Truth, so liars won't be too comfortable living there. Depending on one's point of view, hellfire might be an act of mercy and compassion for those who have rejected God. Hellfire is God's goodnight kiss to His wayward children and He finally answers their prayers. He gives them a universe where He doesn't exist. I have been there, and it is not to my liking.